Alex Klein:
Welcome to the I is for Institute Podcast. My name is Alex Klein, the Dorothy and Stephen R. Weber (CHE'60) Curator at ICA, the Institute of Contemporary Art at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. In this series, you will hear from our colleagues working in contemporary arts organizations around the world about their individual perspectives on the work they are doing to shape and imagine different institutional models. At this critical moment when museums and their infrastructures are being reevaluated, these dialogues highlight pressing concerns for artists, art workers, arts institutions, and their publics. We invite you to follow these ongoing conversations and to access the archive at our website www.iisforinstitute.icaphila.org. In this episode, I am joined in conversation by Tausif Noor, former ICA Spiegel-Wilks Curatorial Fellow, who will be sitting down with Lulani Arquette, President and CEO of the Native Arts and Cultures Foundation (the NACF) and Flint Jamison, co-founder of Yale Union, both in Portland, Oregon. They will share the poignant story of the relationship forged through Yale Union's decision to dissolve as an organization and transfer its building and land over to the NACF, and the complexities and new possibilities created by these actions.
Lulani Arquette:
I'm Lulani Arquette. I hail from Hawai'i. I'm Native Hawaiian on my father's side from the Kameeiamoku Waipa Parker clan on the largest island in Waimea, Hawai'i, and I'm mixed race on my mother's side from the Lytle Gee lines of Pennsylvania and South Dakota. I've been running organizations for 30 years now and graduated with a degree in political science and theater arts from the University of Hawaii. And I've been the president, CEO of the Native Arts and Cultures Foundation for 12 years now; it launched here in Portland in 2009. And so I relocated from Hawaii to take on this position. I would just also like to acknowledge and honor all of the ancestors and the elders, from the many tribal nations and groups who are from these very lands on which I reside here now and work from in both Vancouver, Washington and Portland, Oregon, whose peoples I've seen, really live on to perpetuate cultural strength and truth. And I'd be remiss, actually, if I didn't mention how much I cherish and I honor my beloved homelands of Hawaii. I miss my homelands. This is where Papa and Wakea, the earth mother and the sky father birthed our islands and it's from where the sun rises at the gates of Tahiti Ku in the East, to where the sun sets at the gates of Tahiti Moe in the East, from all of our beautiful deep seas to the high mountains. I just want to give love, honor and respect to Ke Akua - our Creator, Na Aumakua - our ancestors, and we cherish our kupuna and our elders, and the many descendants of our people who still walk this earth. So, again, thank you so much for having me in part of this discussion today.
Flint Jamison:
My name is Flint Jamison, I was raised as a settler colonial on the lands of the Crow Nation in Montana. I moved to the West in the early 2000s, I started a art institution called Department of Safety, that was in the San Juan Islands. A few years later, around the same time that NACS started actually, I became a co-founder of Yale Union and the board chair. So that was around 2008, 2009. We started public programming in 2011.
AK:
And briefly, can you tell us the missions of your respective organizations?
LA:
The Native Arts and Cultures Foundation, we were formed after quite a number of years of research and study that was led by the Ford Foundation and through convenings with Native leaders and artists, administrators, and others. And we were launched with support from the Ford Foundation. Our mission is to really advance equity and cultural knowledge. We focus on the power of arts and culture and in collaboration to really strengthen Native communities and to promote positive social change in American Indian, Native Hawaiian, and Alaska Native communities and Alaska Native peoples in the United States.
FJ:
Yeah, and with Yale Union, our mission was really to––and I'll probably be jumping back and forth between past and present tense in this talk––but our mission has been to propose new modes of production. We really benefited from the privilege of property ownership, we had a large property that allowed us to produce artwork, and to support artists, and kind of like stimulate an ongoing public discourse around art.
Tausif Noor:
Great, thank you both so much. I think that this expansiveness of both of your missions, I think there's something really great about how there isn't a narrow scope of just exhibition making, but also cultural production and supporting that. And one of the things that in researching both of your organizations that became very clear to me is that the specific locations, the specific histories, the regional histories, and the Indigenous histories of these places are so important. So Lulani, for instance, you've mentioned Native Alaskan, American Indigenous, and Native Hawaiian cultures. And I'd love for you to speak a little bit about how the mission of the NACF allows for both the breadth, but also the specificity of celebrating these cultures, and in sharing knowledge about those cultures. And in the same vein, I would love, Flint, for you to expand a little bit about the specificity of Portland as a location at that specific time of around 2008, 2009. And maybe whether that specific time and place played a role in the genesis of Yale Union. Maybe we could reflect a little bit on the specific locations and histories that were attuned to.
LA:
I imagine you folks are probably already aware that there's a pretty vast and diverse range of Indigenous peoples across this country. The work that NACF is doing are working with American Indian, Native Hawaiian, and Alaska Native communities, whose people reside in what is the current boundaries of the United States, Alaska and Hawaii, and who originated from lands that is from the current boundaries of the United States, Alaska and Hawaii. And so there's about 574 tribes, and that includes Alaska Native corporations and villages. And there's about 600,000 Native Hawaiians now located in Hawaii, and about half in Hawaii, and the other half spread out across the continental United States. So there is no homogenous reality that has been misconstrued about Native peoples––we're all very diverse. But there are, there are threads that are woven through our histories that are very similar, that some of the histories of the oppression and genocide has happened to Native peoples across this country. That's a topic of another session. The work that we've done with the Native Arts and Cultures Foundation is to really, when we take a look at all of our communities across the nation, and a lot of the challenges that have faced our peoples, we're really looking at how do we address those misconceptions about Native peoples first and foremost, and reclaim that Native knowledge, uncover it, it's there still, but bring it to the forefront. And the way that NACF does this is obviously through an arts and culture lens. We believe that the work that we're doing has this ability to really address these issues of social and environmental change, social justice, and economic justice, and bring light to these issues, bring attention to the issues through an artistic and creative lens. Movements have to be created because of the power of arts and cultures in the past, and as a few see today too.
So, the work that we're doing in NACF is really about raising up our peoples, in particular artists, creatives and culture bearers, and then supporting them to do their work through, you know, the kind of work: the grant making and the project work that we're doing. And we think that through that effort, we've really helped nurture this movement for artists’ success. We've worked with individual Native artists, arts organizations, and communities. We've conducted convenings and really offered support to the field. So, we're really trying to strengthen artist reach and knowledge in that arts leadership capacity in our communities, urban and rural. And we do that through, as I mentioned, community-based awards, individual artist fellowships and mentor artists fellowships to really help, again, advance that arts practice and address social change.
FJ:
Okay, that's amazing. I'll just very briefly contextualize Yale Union's founding, then in its location. 2008, 2009, Obama years, we moved into what was ostensibly an empty building that occupied half of a city block. It had been empty for about three years. Previously, it had been put on the National Historic Registry. The building itself was built 100 years prior. It was put on the registry because it was a central figure in a strike for the women's labor movement. Fast forward 100 years, the neighborhood is a light industrial neighborhood, about, you know, seven years or nine years later, the US Tax Cuts and Jobs Act was passed and that paved the way for the opportunity zone, and the really, really fast paced gentrification of certain areas of the United States. And Yale Union is in one of those opportunity zones. Gentrification had been happening the years directly preceding that as well, but not to the extreme that it happened thereafter.
AK:
I'm so struck by how both of your organizations have a commitment to resource sharing. You know, whether for all the reasons that Lulani outlined, or, you know, Flint, even thinking about the artist studios, with reasonable rent in your building, or in the former Yale Union building. I'm really interested in how this is now about redistribution of resources between institutions. I don't want to dwell too much on the past, but we would love it if you could both walk us through the story of how you came together and how this transfer occurred. We're specifically interested in the dialogues, the question of relationship building, both as individuals and as institutions, because they seem so entwined.
LA:
It was quite a synchronistic experience of how we came together. Well, it may have been planned, I'll let Flint speak to this plan from their end. But, from our end, we hadn't been looking for a building; that wasn't even on our radar. How it really, very simply came into play was through contact from Yale Union. Through an email contacting us to reconnect, what I thought was reconnecting, from the former executive director Yoko Ott. I had met Yoko when I first took this position at the Native Arts and Cultures Foundation. And I had been up to Seattle at a conference, and I met Yoko at that time, back in I think it was 2010 or 11, I can't remember. And we connected because we're both from Hawaii, we're both mixed race, both in the arts field. And so, I really admired her incredible leadership and abilities at that time. And then we kind of lost touch with each other a couple times through emails we had connected over the years, but otherwise, you know, had lost touch. And then I got contacted. And I had known of Yale Union before but didn't, hadn't connected at all with them too much. I didn't even know Yoko was affiliated with Yale Union. I didn't know at the time. I ended up going down there to tour the building. I thought we were going to talk about our respective organizations in Hawaii and updates just to kind of what we call 'talk story' in Hawaii. She basically talked to me about the building and the desire they had to transfer the ownership of the building. I was shocked. It was truly unexpected. So that's how it started. And there's a lot more to tell about that. I'm going to pivot to Flint to add a little bit more context from his side.
FJ:
Yeah. What to say from my perspective? I can say that, you know, the relationship after that initial contact has been really meaningful, and is really focused, and relied on so much institutional trust and appreciation, and admiration of NACF. And, yeah, the way that it started, Yoko, Yoko unfortunately passed away, in, you know, in the middle of this story, and that's kind of like one of the true sadnesses of it. Yoko and I were very close as I was the chair of the board. We had been having some conversations about it, in the fulfillment of our mission, to you know, again, propose like new models of cultural production: what would it mean to maybe radicalize that? That inspired a very lengthy relationship between two organizations and feasibility studies and lots of board meetings, and conversations.
AK:
Was the decision always that Yale Union would cease to exist alongside the transfer of the building? Or does Yale Union still exist in some other form?
FJ:
Yale Union has always kind of benefited from the unearned privilege of property ownership, as I mentioned. Our budget was heavily reliant on earned income and that earned income was generated primarily through short term event rentals, i.e. weddings, or photoshoots from Nike. And without that income, we just simply don't have the capital to like really produce culture in the way that our mission was set up for.
TN:
Thank you so much for explaining that and walking us through that. This act feels unprecedented. I hadn't heard of this kind of specific transfer of ownership before. And I wanted to highlight that this transfer of ownership is a specific term that I've read you've used, Flint. It's not charity, it's not a gift, it's a transfer of ownership. And I want to kind of ask two questions or a question in two parts. One is, were you looking at other models? Had you researched, you know, how could this happen, whether locally or elsewhere? And in this transfer, there's necessarily going to be loss. And I think that's, that's a beautiful way to move forward from our current modes of thinking, our current modes of production, our current modes of even conceptualizing what culture is. And I suppose that I'm curious, you know, what that has meant for the institution in the process? You said, you wanted to fulfill the mission, but in this process, the institution has transformed. And I think, when we think of terms like transformative justice, we have to allow that transformation to impact all aspects of what we do. And I sort of want to, you know, I would just ask you to think a little bit more about that transformation and what that has meant in these past months and years.
FJ:
It's hard to you know propose any kind of like systemic change without loss. And also, there's something, I guess, you know, abolition is kind of like intoxicating: the process of like getting there. Wow, it really, it has a lot of feelings. I can definitely say that it hasn't been simple. It's been three very intense years of like, yeah, getting to this place. And maybe we also were like, seduced by the concept. There's a lot of books that I've read that I love that like talk about this kind of activity. But wow, yeah, when it actually comes down to divesting and like, where do we put that stuff? Where does the art in the basement that artist 'X' left now go? Does it go to the dumpster? You know, those are real questions. So yeah, that's stuff that we've had to process for sure.
TN:
Absolutely. And Lulani, I mean, I would also love for you to maybe discuss a little bit about any transformations or any, maybe new possibilities that opened as a result of these conversations in this discussion. Because, again, I think transformation happens in both directions.
LA:
Absolutely, Tausif, that's so true. I want to go back, if I may respond a little bit to Flint, and back up, to say a couple of things, and bring us to where we are now. When this happened, I think the emotions and depth of feelings and the range of emotions were really intense on both the YU side, and the NACF side. And there were times we met, there were tears in all of our eyes, that there were, there was that kind of emotion. It was even deeper because very shortly, as Flint said, we had lost Yoko and especially for them who had been working for Yoko for, for a long time. So, it was just these range of emotions of things that had happened, that caused us to really–it's almost hard to explain to people the intensity of it. So, you know, immense joy and immense sadness, ecstasy and immense pain. You know, it's all of this coming on at the same time. And I would say that it's more joyful, though, with Flint. Flint is amazing and his team to work with. As a Native person, our style, I mean, our belief, our values are that we were very grateful for this. We were very, as I mentioned, surprised that the gratitude was so immense that that was, you know, we were just so thankful. Flint was doing this thing: "No Lulani, No", he goes, "I don't want to you... don't honor us, don't tell us that we've done something." He was always telling me this: this is something that should have been done years ago. This is, you know, this is something that's, that's really important. And when I say this, these mix of feelings, I'm just really kind of ditto-ing what Flint just said.
But moving forward to looking at sort of the transformation in the building, I will say that the other thing that was intense for me as a Native person, and then my Native colleagues here, both that are in our organization and other Native colleagues that are from tribes in this area, you know. That area where the building sits kind of near the Willamette River, the banks of the Willamette River and used to be a whole marshlands, right. But it was an area where they would construct kind of traditional village sites, the various different tribes of the area. And they did that just to kind of create these summer encampments, and then they would go in and harvest some of the fishing, hunting and harvesting grounds. It was too marshy to live on in this historically on a regular basis. You know, when I stand in that building, I enter that building, when I look around, that vision always comes back to me. And also what comes back to me is, you know, the Willamette Valley Indians were removed from this area. They had a population, you know, at one time of 15,000. And then according to some historians, smallpox came in and malaria came in and the population was decimated down to about 2000. In spite of the 1851 land treaties of this time, white settlers continued to come in and annex the tribal lands. So I mean, this was constantly going on.
So that history is there. And that's what people mean, when they mean honoring and acknowledging the land and the place and the ancestors. So that's really real for us as Native peoples. And I'm not even of a tribe from this area. And I relate because of that history, so I just wanted to share that. And I thank Flint, and why you understood and understand this. And that's what I think was so critical for us that they really resonated and understood this. And this act of rematriation, we call it 'rematriation' for a reason not repatriation, was really important. I mean, it was hugely important. So that changes, we've had to go through NACF, it was hard to go through this process, because it was important for the leadership of my organization to really get wrapped around this. And we're primarily an art service organization, and a re-grantor within the arts and community field, locally and nationally. And this now moves us into another arena as a property owner as a presenting and exhibiting organization now. A cultural producer in that space, which is, it's huge for us.
So then we had to go do a whole feasibility study. We had to spend some resources initially, to get that done. Thank God, we have them. And then the rest is history. My... it took three.. it wasn't just all Flint's boards in there. It was our side, too. We were both having to jump through a lot of hoops to get this to happen. But the board approved it. The title transferred in February of this year, only. The title of the building just transferred in February of this year, both of our boards signed the agreement a year ago. And we finally finalized the transfer of title in February. And still through all that, you know, there's these emotions going on. And you can see how Flint, I mean, it's hard for them, as he said, and it's hard for us. There's still a connection, we've kind of went through a year transition period with the tenants that are still in the building for this year's kind of a transition. And we took on two of his YU's part time staff.
AK:
I mean, this is such an intense process for all of you––I can only begin to imagine. The reason this project is called I is for Institute is we really are thinking about the people within institutions as much as the other kind of broader questions. Thinking about your communities, the individuals, your staff. I would love to hear more from both of you about how this affects your respective communities, whether also you're building maybe new communities with this transfer?
FJ:
Yeah, great question Alex. And it's kind of a follow up to my response, to my last statement in which, about like kind of the loss and those conflicted feelings, but also just like basic things like health insurance and wages and these kinds of things. So as an institution, we've operated very uniquely as a very actual tiny institution and a very large building. We really technically only had 1.52 people full-time staff. And then some part-time people and like Lulani said NACF took over. Some of our staff, and then others have like, made new plans. But I think it's important to also communicate about how this isn't about loss necessarily. It's about like, what's gained, you know through the generosity, and again, gracefulness of NACF and the very long drawn out process that is entailed. We've been able to make plans and think about possible futures and opportunities, etc.
LA:
I did want to mention this: that last year, at this exact time, it almost was in July, actually, we did a soft announcement, you know, because of COVID and everything, we actually... one other thing I did not mention is we were going to do some of this earlier, the announcement of the building and the transfer. But when COVID hit, we thought it wasn't the right time, especially at the beginning. But then we collectively made a decision that it was the right time to do it in July, in the middle right now around summer of 2020. A year ago. I have to tell you, when that happened, yeah––Flint is laughing––it was like a breath of fresh air, it was like hope. It was like a light had flipped on. We got so much response from Native, non Native, communities across the country, locally, regionally, media, and it was a soft press release. It wasn't, you know, we didn't do a huge, big one. That people were saying, this is just so moving. And that this model, this possibility, is out there. And I can say that since that time happened, I've seen so much other things come into being. And I'm not saying this is what caused it. However, I think that there may be some impetus. And you know, but it might have had a drop of influence on some of the things that are going on now in decisions that have been made from, I look in the philanthropic field, the kind of work that's being done. I look at other organizations, just across the board. And this issue has risen up certainly because of the social justice movement that happened as a result of, of last year's pandemic and the issues with George Floyd and all of the race issues. But I think this also had a small little grain of influence too. And I think that our staff, what it's done for us, is remarkable. I haven't even had a chance to talk to Flint about this. And we kind of…
FJ:
What's happening? Tell me what's happening!
LA:
Yeah, I am telling you that we're going to be retrofitting the building. That was part of it to make it more meet the vision and mission of NACF. So we can be more helpful: a gathering place for Native and tribal communities and artists and culture bearers here. And to have these important discussions around social change and environmental justice and all of the issues that are important to us collectively, even us on this phone, I think probably. And that we can really be a place that can lift up artists’ potential with artists’ maker space. A lot of that we carried on some of the vision that YU you had been doing with we're looking at that with exhibitions and performances and that kind of thing. Part of that retrofitting, we're engaging in a capital campaign, that's going to probably start to raise enough funding that we need. And we haven't even started that. But we did some research around that. And with a study to determine the ability for us to raise the money. We've just been able to attract so much more support in just one year since we've had this building, since we made that announcement.
It's kind of mind-boggling, actually. It's a great start. And it's also kind of scary and frightening because with those resources, additional resources and you know, the reality of it really comes into being and that we know that this is happening now. And the big shift: we've just added three new staff. We're kind of what was a small, lean little organization. We start with four or five staff. We're up to 12 staff. We just added three more, that's part of the 12. And we still will be needing to add more, because we still do all our NACF work and grant making and then now moving into the building. So, it's quite exciting. But it's also, you know, we're learning. We don't have all the answers. And the community that we're in, we now can, since the pandemic, we seem to be coming out of that now and can begin having some meetings in the building––focus groups with stakeholders, artists, you know, other nonprofit organizations, and consortiums locally and nationally, about their vision and their uses for the building and what they see. It's very exciting.
AK:
It's really great to hear you say that because you know one of the first thoughts when you were recounting the story that I had was, you said “yes” immediately, but was there ever a moment where you were like, “actually, maybe I'm not sure?” Because, as you outlined, this building maybe shifts or extends the mission in a different direction. But it also creates a whole other layer of complexity, which were explored within the feasibility studies. Having a building isn't always necessarily a good thing.
LA:
I'd like Flint to talk to this too, because he, from what their experience is, but for what we've just experienced, you're absolutely right. And part of the feasibility study that was done in some of the comments that interviewed about 25 to 30 major stakeholders here locally that include funders nationally, and include just other kinds of leaders in the arena of arts and culture of philanthropy. And some of the feedback was really interesting. The study highlighted concerns about safety and security issues around the building, when you start investing, we're going to invest some of these resources in. Portland has been a place, as you know, of a lot of protests, you know, active protests. That's another conversation to get into. It was some of that has been, you know, defacing of buildings and you know, the things that have happened as a result of some of the concerns last year. And so that kind of made me start thinking about the security issues around the building. And, you know, what does that mean? We've never had to think about those kinds of things before. So, security issues, but it's also, it's a historic preservation building. So, there's certain things you can do to it, and certain things you can't. Particularly it pertains to the exterior. So, when we think about signage, and kind of some things we don't want to do around signage, even. It's all of those kinds of things that present some of the complexities. And then it's just the transition from YU to NACF. The leadership, that, you know, for us, we formed it as an LLC, a limited liability corporation under NACF. Again, it's just thinking in much bigger and broader ways of what we have to do.
TN:
I'm so grateful for this discussion, because what it opens up to me is that there is, and we've always known this, but there is a need in the society that we live in to understand Indigenous cultures as past, present, and future. It's all of the above there, it's a living culture, and it has a rich history, and it's going to exist in this way through all of these different kinds of activities. And I just want to thank you for just the way that you've discussed this, it really puts that to the fore. And I guess, we've talked a little bit about the future, we've talked a little bit about these really exciting plans. And as things are starting to open up and, and we're trying to get back to our cultural activities that were postponed during the pandemic, I would love to think about maybe one or two things that you're really excited about, the stuff that's happening, and in the very near future, on both ends. So Lulani, anything that you would love to highlight that you'd love to share with our audiences about what's coming up? And Flint, maybe just a little bit about what Yale Union is thinking about in the future and its many arms of activities and things like that.
FJ:
Obviously, as an institution dissolves, it, like begs a bunch of questions. And, you know, most, you know, most present then becomes about like archive fever, and you know, the instincts of white institutions to, you know, to put that stuff in air conditioned locations. And so we've been questioning that a bunch which has just been productive. And then yeah, just immediately, you know, one of the exhibitions we had postponed from, like 2018 is an exhibition that we had scheduled with Marianne Nicolson, a First Nations artist from Vancouver Island. And NACF has been very generous in letting us install that exhibition that opens next week in their space.
LA:
That's so exciting about Marianne Nicolson. They had this in the works for a long time, and then again, as with many that the pandemic had hit, so we're as excited as they are about this. For NACF, we are looking at possibly in September, again, you know, everything is subject to, you know, the opening up of things and the requirements, gathering restrictions and whatnot. But we're looking at a possible board meeting; I think we're going to have it in person. And they're, all willing to come out in September for our board meeting. So we're going to have our board come to Portland in September, and then we probably most likely will do a small something at the building, a very small, kind of, announcement that we are going to want you, Flint, and all you guys there. And that's kind of that time we've been talking about of collectively, YU and NACF together, and kind of invite a few people that we were able to invite. So that's that.
As far as programming, we're looking at a couple of different things for 2022. They're kind of still in the works. Like, I'll say them without mentioning names, because it's not confirmed yet. But they have an artist symposium that really has to do more with visual artists. And then some performances for another possibility on that second floor. So again, we're kind of in the works on that right now. And we also, yay, just received another support from another funder that allows us to be able to hire a director for CNAC. We're calling it the Center for Native Arts and Cultures. And so we're going to be able to hire a director.
AK:
I love that this exchange has been an opportunity to share all of this new, exciting information. Lulani, you had brought up how the pandemic had kind of stalled things or affected the process in some ways. And I wanted to hear a little bit more, you know, thinking about this past year-and-a-half with the global pandemic, and all of the urgent calls for racial justice that I think have really brought into relief in such a profound way the inequities that Native peoples and people of color face, and how they are overwhelmingly affected by the kind of violent, capitalist, settler colonial system that we're all a part of here. And so, you know, I think, with that there has been a lot of institutional thinking about potentially the impossibility of divorcing institutional models from their colonial roots. But there's also been a lot of talk of coalition building. There's been more conversations than I can ever remember about reparations, or what you refer to as 'rematriation', which I am now going to embrace as a term, more self-consciously. We've also become more concerned, I think, with the health of our colleagues and staff. Terms like 'care' become used a lot in institutions. But one thing that comes to mind with all of this is perhaps a term like ‘healing.’ And I wondered if that is a useful term, or if it could be employed in some way within, in this context that we're talking about. And, you know, at this very, maybe dark moment in time, if there is a kind of maybe glimmer of hope, or a space for healing that is quite profound in this exchange that you've had?
FJ:
Yeah, it's a very appropriate and timely question, Alex, and a good one. For me, it's, you know, it's about material and just about money. You know, the building the property value, the use value of the building has a specific value. For us, like what support looks like, or healing or care looks like––these terms, I think these terms can be kind like soft power terms and that they actually don't encourage actual material support. Yeah, for us, for me, it's just about like, where's let's see, you know…proof is in the pudding. Let's see the money. You know, let's see where the money goes.
LA:
I can say as a Native Hawaiian, I can maybe speak to my just being a Native Hawaiian and some of our cultural values. And certainly, knowing that there is some truth to this in many other Native and Indigenous peoples and tribes across this nation. We understand that our histories, many of/most of us, we understand the damage and the trauma that's been done to our peoples, in particular, the removal from lands or the, you know, the stealing of land. That's huge in our communities and probably one of the most primary issues. And so, having said that, we also know that there's strength and fortitude, and knowledge and great power in our Native people, and that they hold it to be true. And that the focus is not so much on rectifying, decolonizing, or settler colonial history, that's going to be done. We know that's going to be done, because we're standing pretty tall now. And that doesn't mean that we're not having the challenges and troubles still, in our organization, especially as a result of this past year. I acknowledge that. But what I'm seeing across the fields with Native organizations similar to NACF, and other BIPOC organizations, for that matter, is this really standing in our truth, and really activating our values and our beliefs, and doing, actually doing what it takes. And so to answer your question, I have to say that first because to answer the question of healing, the way I would answer that is there is, there does need to be space for that. We talk about that very strongly in our Native communities, for celebration of our culture, that's part of our culture is celebration of our dances, our music, and our food, everything. And also for the trauma that's been inflicted upon our people. So it's important for us that we allow spaces in places for healing, and transformation. And we have our own ways that we do that. It may include a lot of the racial equity, diversity, inclusion work, the academic work that's being done in and across institutions, relative to settler colonial history, and decolonization and looking at manifest destiny, and you know, all of these terms. But what's most important to us is that we're doing it. And we can do that ourselves.
So, at CNAC, the Center for Native Arts and Cultures, we have part of the redesign of that building and the retrofitting, is spaces that allow for that. And, for example, in the basement is a tributary from a creek that kind of runs down into the basement right now, it's stopped up and not utilized. But, we're going to, in the design plans, repurpose that so that allows water to flow through because it's very symbolic. Water is a life force for all of us and for Native peoples especially. So instead of stopping that water up, or it's why you did not do it either, you know, building concrete over it. We are going to let that flow through and designing a little bit around that, so that people can go down there, and it is a space to reflect, to think, to create, to be, to celebrate. And we also are doing that on the rooftop and creating a green space on the rooftop for the same exact purpose. So, spaces can be healing. That's one of the ways that we're trying to do that. And aside from all of our supportive artists and the kinds of real critical discussions in symposiums that we'll be having relative to these issues with non-Native people with other people that are not Native. So there is that connection.
Native people are, Flint knows this, Native people are about connecting. You know, he always says, 'Oh, Lulani', you know, that's why we, I think we're so, Flint and I the team, we just get along so well together. And so, you know, this is about connection. We’re still very––even when Flint doesn't, or YU doesn't want me to say this––I still will say, and I'll say it in this meeting: we are grateful. We have such gratitude that this has happened. And I don’t want to stop saying that. I really you know, I mean mahalo, mahalo for this.
TN:
Thank you, I mean, thank you both so much for this. And Lulani, I mean, this is exactly what I was hoping that we would touch upon that this institution, these entire epistemologies, a different way of thinking. We actually have to let go of what I think an institution, what we think an institution is actually. That at the transformative moment, you have to allow that to transform us all, and in ways that, you know, you can't expect. I think what you said about honoring your traditions, honoring that heritage, and also, maybe, you know, some things that are not accessible to others that don't mean, you know, that don't have to be in this public way. And I think that this is exactly what we're hoping to capture in this project is that the notion that we have, the predilections or the assumptions that we have about institutions need to be honestly just gotten rid of. And I think this is why this is such an exciting moment to speak with you. And we're both so excited to see what what's going to come forth.
AK:
And likewise, I'm just so appreciative of both of you and your answers to the last question and your honesty. I think it just really demonstrates a real commitment to practice over the performative which I think is, you know, a real, perhaps pitfall within the arts context. I think often this language that you know, Lulani, you kind of gestured to, become terms and not, you know, lived experience and put into practice as you really clearly stated. And I really appreciate that, and I know that this is not easy. You both demonstrated that it takes a lot of work, consideration and collaboration and dialogue, and emotion. So, we just are so appreciative again of your time and for sharing a small piece of the story with us. Thank you so much.
Please join us for our next episode with James E. Britt Jr, former DAJ Director of Public Engagement for a conversation with Ken Lum and Paul M. Farber, about their work with Monument Lab, an organization that seeks to shine light on and destabilize the systems of power embedded within our monument landscape. They will share their insights on how organizations can reframe the way they work within and alongside communities. In the meantime, we look forward to welcoming you in person in ICA, please visit our website, www.icaphila.org. For more information about our upcoming exhibitions and programs. I'd like to thank Jason Moran for the original music and my colleagues at ICA who helped make this podcast possible. James E. Britt, Jr, former DAJ Director of Public Engagement; Derek Rigby, Audio Visual Coordinator; Natalie Sandstrom, former Program Coordinator; Jill Katz, Director of Marketing and Communications; Ali Mohsen, Digital Content Editor; and Olive Martin, Social Media Coordinator, as well as collaborators former Spiegel-Wilks Curatorial Fellows Tausif Noor and Gee Wesley. Thank you for listening.